Darshan With John White, Elda Heartley And Gurudev
June 04, 1977 qa
[Translated by Gurudev]
When yogi enters into the first stage of savichara samadhi, his new body begins to reform, or form again. After half of the body is purified through the divine fire, he attains to the omniscience. He knows everything. Everything comes to him. When there is no siddhi or no power that is unknown to him, anything he can imagine he can do or he knows how to do.
But that condition is very difficult for him. At that time if he begins to exhibit his powers to the world he stops progressing. And has only done half of the body. It is not completed yet. At that time if he does not get attracted by the desire for power or demonstrating it his powers to others, then he goes even beyond the power of knowing everything [inaudible].
Then he becomes even the highest yogi. He doesn’t want to know anything and he knows everything. Then he begins to feel that the birds are he doesn’t suppose about the power to fly. He sees the birds flying. He sees the airplanes flying. So he should say what good is me flying there? That to him is very he doesn’t see the importance in it.
See, at that state this is the kind of condition made because he has nothing to gain. He doesn’t look for power recognition, anything. We try to do all these things to impress others you know, or to fulfill our own inhibitions. And he has none. He will see the secret hidden wealth in any place, wherever. Anything he can see, but he has no desire to get it for any purpose at all. He can disappear. He can make his body like mountain giant. He can become very small. He can become very hairy. He can become very light.
Then he feels at that time his mental condition becomes such that he’s very delicate of showing all these magic shows. You see, it has a value for those who have other motives, ulterior motives. He has gone beyond it.
So Bapuji says that he does not expose these powers intentionally that they get exposed naturally without his intention. Just as the lamp the light radiates the light around it, the flower spreads the fragrance, so also the siddhis of the yogi spread the fragrance. It naturally becomes visible and experiential for other people. But not intentionally.
He doesn’t do anything because he wants to be recognized or known, or he wants to create some impressions. Just as in the world all the things in the world go on happening, just as the sun rises and it sets, you know. So they begin to find the underlying reality behind it. So they stay away from the world in a subtle level.
And they keep sending the help to the people those who need it in a very unknown way, in a secret way. So the saints work that way. And so they don’t have to come into the world in a physical way necessarily to help, the kind of help they want to give. They don’t need any honors from others or respect from others. So they just do it in an unknown way.
He is the true representative of God, he is the true son of God. And that can only happen by the grace of God. [Gurudev comments, referring to Bapuji:] When he says, he means literally then no matter how much we try, our mind cannot conceive because he is so into it. There is no way mind can conceive. I mean we are thinking altogether different thing than what he is talking right now. I know that, with what little I know.
JOHN WHITE: Do you have any questions? I’ve got a million to ask him. I don’t want to monopolize. Swami Rama allowed himself to be known in [inaudible] other places. He demonstrated unusual things the sort of things that make scientists pay attention and say, “Hey, something’s happening here.”
Is Bapuji interested or willing to serve in the same way? And if not, what verbal indications can he give to scientists in their studies on other people or other yogis, to look for as signs of higher consciousness that you can see in a machine [inaudible]?
BAPUJI: Yes, it can be done because there is a research center starting in India also. There’s books on yoga they have published from the yoga research center so but he searches different way, so he’ll tell you. There is a research work that it means learning as a material [?] of science but cannot be brought to the mankind. So it cannot be much useful.
The research in yoga should be of such a nature that it could be more made available to the large public and be of benefit to them. Just as they found the automobile and the airplane that made everybody’s travel very easy, the same way the experiments in the body and mind of yogic nature should be carried out in such a way that it could be beneficial to the society. It is very appropriate that I give such a [inaudible].
And consider me to be yours, and I will be gladly available to you. But I have to wait for two years because he [Gurudev is referring to Bapuji] wants to reach to the peak before he will do anything of this nature because he doesn’t want to attract the attention of the people. That would disturb his sadhana. But he says consider me yours.
For last ten years, there are many devotees who come to him just for darshan. They tell me about their diseases and physical problems. They are to bring a small piece of paper and they write in four or five lines as to what are their difficulties, physical difficulties. And I answer them in five ways as to what they should do about it.
In my experiments in mainly changing their diet by that many diseases have been cured. To some I ask them to fast and that’s how they cure their diseases. Other cases I recommend to them to do what is more appropriate for them some people find health just by fasting, some people just by changing their diet, some people just doing asanas and pranayama, some people just pranayama and diet [inaudible].
So if you want to take more simple diseases and work with them because the detail otherwise is that more complicated would require lots of my time and my care and attention, which I didn’t have at that time. But in this research center there would be a naturopath, there would be a medical doctor, and there would be a physical therapist and a yogi.
And they will secure the patients of the one kind of diseases and they would start experimenting on them at this point. They will take the disease of the first stage, second stage and third stage disease people who were experimenting and keep the record, an ongoing record as to what are the results of the experiment of yogic experience, or yogic method of cures.
My feeling is society can benefit more from these kind of things also, but Bapuji when he reaches to the highest he has said something very special that he wants to let know. He could be willing to show something that the whole world, not just four or five scientists, are interested in. The whole world would have to see it and recognize it, accept it. Because Bapuji has a very scientific mind.
The science has given many comforts to people, but the science can give pain and suffering like atom bomb has been made by the science. In India, the physical sciences as well as spiritual sciences reached their peak. When the plane wasn’t even invented here, there was no plane here at that time in India you could find the description of airplane.
So when the yogis saw these physical sciences were growing very quickly in India in those days and they saw it was destructive in nature. So yogis suppressed the whole physical science in those days. Even though it may be useful, but if one nation has the power of the destructive instrument he can destroy the whole society. It’s like atom bomb, if you have it.
JOHN WHITE: Your descriptions of what seem to be an atomic explosion in the ancient Vedas
BAPUJI: I am surprised that the Germany has a great contact with India, which is [?], the land of Aryans, the original tribe that came. That one tribe called Sharma [?] and in India Sharma [?] is Brahman caste. They are known as Sharman [?] in Germany. They are connected, and they have all the Vedas and all the old scriptures in Germany. And they are some of the best scholars in Sanskrit in Germany today.
But the most surprising thing is that Germany has not connected itself to the civilization of India as much as it should have. Instead, America has joined with India spiritually more. [Gurudev comments:] And that’s interesting. [Translating Bapuji again:] And that is one beginning spiritual liaison. So our connection was India and America connection is the spiritual relationship. [Gurudev comments:] Isn’t that beautiful, what I am telling you?
I believe that it is Swami Vivekanand who is the first one to lay the foundation for this in America. And he grabbed the attention of this whole country toward the civilization and knowledge of India. He is a very high saint. Anyone who just comes here to earn the money is not the saint. That is a business. You cannot call him saint.
Swami Vivekanand has such a grandeur in his personality, but he gave even just a faint color of bhakti, jnana and yoga [inaudible]. The sanatana dharma of India that is the dharma that made changes that have been undying is very different from other regions of the world. There is a specialty. There is no addition in that region. There is only subtraction. It has never tried to increase its followers.
Moslems have spread their religion by keeping the Koran that is a book and sword in their other hand. The Christianity has spread by the attraction of money and power given to the poor people. And Sanatani says that anyone who is dying in this religion can become Sanatani. Or even if he was not dying but he is practicing the teachings he can become Sanatani.
And it has been its principle not to make anybody Sanatani by changing his dress and external appearance, by external temptations. And the swamis who have said that you can’t go and start making people sanatana dharma this religion, then there have been many people who have been converted in that manner.
There are so many swamis with this power in this [inaudible]. They are so powerfully intellectual and sharp [inaudible]. So intellect and insight that when they would talk about religion and teach they’d be able to touch everybody’s heart and attract them. But so far nobody has received that kind of guidance from the top.
Such a business contract should not be made because this is a religion. It should be purely on a spiritual level. If you love me and I love you, then what is the necessity of external put on. There is no need to even call Sanatani because as long as we are all travelling toward God that’s Sanat.
See there’s a tremendous amount of tolerance and acceptance in the religion. And tremendous that’s why there has been such a wealth in the spiritual aspect in India. You see many, many devotees and wide knowledge because there is so much freedom, you see. And there is so much freedom here on a physical level. So there is tremendous amount of growth in physical senses here. And there is so much freedom there in the spiritual surrounding, spiritual growth.
This is the meaning of sanatana dharma that it is the religion of man. It is the religion of everyone, and it is the religion of truth. And it the religion of the world. It is the religion of the divine beings. It is the religion of everyone it doesn’t exclude anyone. In there the flattering is given in favor of man, not in favor of country or any other section.
JOHN WHITE: Bapuji does the teaching of Shri Aurobindo coincide with his view of the development of the divine body?
BAPUJI: I do not believe that this divine body can happen on a mass basis [inaudible]. It is not possible that the whole society and the whole nation can attain the divine body all at the same time.
JOHN WHITE: Even in many thousands of years?
BAPUJI: Bapuji says that such things can be possible, probably, and when there is a Satya Yuga, the yuga of the highest creative light but it is not something that our imaginations can achieve or arise to that level. But even there it will not be all, but there will be many individuals of such a high caliber that they may reach to the highest stages.
In the Satya Yuga it is the purest. Then it then it is polluted little bit in Dvapara, then little more in Treta, then in Kali Yuga. See that it continues to [inaudible]. And then it is all transformed and goes back to the purity again.
Just as there are different weathers that change in the year, and they change from rainy season to the cold to the hot and so on the same way the ages that change. It’s the same way it keeps growing from it goes down from the Satya Yuga all the way to the Kali Yuga. And then the whole thing gets transformed to the higher.
JOHN WHITE: I have one more question.
BAPUJI: I’m intentionally giving a little longer answers. If I gave you short answer I would have finished all of you. But I think he feels your sincerity and you’re the field that you are in also.
JOHN WHITE: I appreciate the opportunity. This is first I have to give you a little background. Last year Doctor Kiran Singh [sp], Minister of Education began a kundalini research Project Consciousness at the Institute of Neuroscience in Bangalore. Part of the research will be to test master yogis in the laboratories.
So I wrote to Dr. Kiran Singh [sp] and asked if he had knowledge of Bapuji, and would he consider having Bapuji participate in the research. He said that he knew Bapuji only by name. He had no personal knowledge of him. So my question is now in twenty years would Bapuji be willing to participate in that research?
BAPUJI: It is my honest belief at this time that I give my cooperation to the science. Then it will be the part of the heritage of mankind here. Just as I said on the plane when I came here, that that plane was an invention of some scientist, so also if I provide some new thing in the yoga that would be my privilege. I believe that the yoga should be in the tests of the science, and be tested properly. It is a science.
Only thing is only certain portion of it can be caught by the mechanical gadgets, not everything. There it cannot go beyond that. See, because I am here in the physical body, then the camera can take my picture. If I disappear, then what can camera do? So it’s the camera has a limitation to study the whole thing.
This way the instruments can only work with its limitations and no more. And yet, it can be a great help to the society to a certain degree. One who wants to become the greatest yogi for him the guidance of the book, the scriptures, would consider to be the best one.
I’ll tell you a very special thing because I love you and you are very much interested in this knowledge. Yogis make temples only so that a new yogi may get the inspiration. One of the secrets that I embedded into the entire structure of the temple and into the main statue can be understood very clearly when the yogi is in that stage of practices.
Right now I’m writing a lecture on the statue worship. One of the disciples of Bapuji, Charles Berner, Yogeshvar Muni, he has asked for that subject for Bapuji to talk on because he is intending to build a temple.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: In California.
BAPUJI: Yes. If such a temple could be built, that will become the
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Greatest temple of yoga.
[Discussion between Gurudev and someone else about what Bapuji is saying]
BAPUJI [translated by Gurudev]: Greatest region of the secrets of yoga. The construction itself is such that when it has been in that path he will read it like an open book. He may belong to any religion or any country. [Gurudev comments:] See, that is how the temples in India are built. They are not just architectural things. They are connected with secrets.
This is if you know the qualities and secrets of yoga the secret book of yoga is in this statue. Just as a painted note of ballads [?] is no longer a paper, so also when the statue is carved from the stone it is no longer a stone or a statue. The research work in this lecture on statue worship will be of great help to many.
It has been written in about twelve pages. It is very short. It is more in principles form not too much details but it is short lecture. He could have written about two hundred pages about the same subject but the limitation was the time.
GURUDEV: Bapuji gave very unusually long time tonight. He must love you all. [Translating:] In India you have to get five minutes. [Commenting:] If you went to India, if you came without the right person with you you would hardly get five minutes. Even if you went all the way to India. Here you get all this time more that he spoke to you. In India he never spoke like this. Up until he came here he only spoke three times a year. And this was to large audience, and he didn’t speak otherwise.
After the seventeen years of silence, I’m going to speak clearly for these two or three months while I’m here again, then observe silence again.
[Discussion in Gujarati between Bapuji and Gurudev]
I have a desire to take some of the individuals who have the good aptitude for the practice of yoga, and so I want to teach them yoga. And then they study all the scriptures of the world from early. [Bapuji says “research” in English.] Research work, you see. [inaudible] All the religious scriptures, but then they would be able to study it and properly do all the research work, not just mentally but as well as the practice yoga and then do it.
That’s what Bapuji is doing in Kayavarohan. [inaudible] So there is a research center and many, many [inaudible] in yoga. In Kayavarohan there is research work being done. The current scene that we are talking about there is another man, a retired minister among the ministers of India, who is working with Mr. K.K. [?] Shah.
He came personally to Bapuji when I was with him in India just three, four months ago. And he was asking for Bapuji to cooperate, and he said, “Yes, but not right away.” He was willing to give the entire laboratory and establish it in Kayavarohan to conduct research work because there are two sadhaks here who had come, are the disciples of Bapuji. So they know about Bapuji.
In the world, simple intellectual research work cannot work. Neither can the instruments of research work. It has to be special. There should be combination of all. Take the instruments, use your intellect, use your experience.
JOHN WHITE: Please tell Bapuji very brief request for prayers [?]
BAPUJI: In love it is not necessary to pray. I wish you all the success your [inaudible] that you are doing you may attain your way.